Council Chamber, Bedford Borough Council
Panel
- Bedford Borough Council, Chief Executive – Laura Church (Chair)
- Bedford Borough Council, Director of Environment - Craig Austin
- Bedford Borough Council, Manager for Community Safety & Resilience – Sarah Stevens
- Bedfordshire Police, Chief Inspector – Katherine Rivers
- Bedford Fire and Rescue Service, Assistant Chief Fire Officer – Jim Davies
Mayor Tom Wootton welcomed residents to the meeting, sharing that Paul Swale's funeral will be at 12:00pm on Thursday 13 December at the Saint Albans Woodland Burial Ground, Keysoe, MK44 2JP. The wake will then be held at Mowsbury Gold Club, and Paul's family would like to share that any neighbours wanting to pay their respects are very welcome.
Mayor Tom Wootton asserted that this announcement highlights the significance of the work that the LRF is doing to ensure that residents are safe, and able to return home feeling safe.
He also shared that HSE and BGS would unfortunately not be able to join the meeting to answer any questions around gas or the borehole, BGS have provided the latest readings which can be found in the information pack: Slides used at the meeting (PDF).
Questions related to gas will be taken away, and we will work to answer your questions and keep the full list of questions found at the bottom of this page up to date and accurate.
Updates from the Panel
Cordon update (Bedfordshire Police)
Katherine apologised for any problems at the cordon over the first couple of days since the new process came in place, hopefully it is now a little bit smoother. Bedfordshire Police are continuing to maintain that cordon around Cleat Hill in order to keep the public safe, following advice from the technological cell based upon residual risk that remains at the site. The cordon is going to remain in place for public safety until we can confirm that the natural gas levels have stabilised.
The advice from the police and other agencies involved in the incident responses, therefore, is that residents and the general public remain outside that 100-metre cordon whilst the multi-agency work is continuing.
As requested last time, we looked at the existing process for residents to book appointments through the local authority to return to properties temporarily and this remains unchanged. Therefore, residents with pre-booked appointments through Bedford Borough Council will not be asked to sign the advisory note or have it read to you.
As previously advised, anyone who chooses not to follow the advice on the advisory note and seeks to enter the cordon outside the current pre-booking process, will be asking to read and sign that advice note police officers at the scene to confirm they recognise they are entering the cordon at their own risk. If you refuse to sign that note, then it will be read to you and it will be recorded on the officer's body worn video.
As a further update, the footpath that crosses from the island across into the park has been reopened for now as that was outside the cordon.
Risk assessments
Sarah Stevens gave an overview of the criteria being used as part of the risk assessments. We are looking at the construction of your homes which is a big piece of work undertaken this week. It will also take into account all of the gas readings that have been collated by the appropriate agencies, including all of the readings that Cadent were undertaking whilst they were with us in previous weeks and then Mines Rescue Service more recently, as well as the gas and ground readings that have been collated by British Geological Survey. It will take into account all of the work that has been undertaken at the borehole, but with the caveat that we are still monitoring. It also looks at the impact of the recent weather changes on those readings. Assessments will also look at some of the people elements of your homes, so we're particularly keen to understand if there's anything we need to take on board around vulnerabilities that might impact on people's ability to self-evacuate or whether we need to look at that protocol in terms of how emergency services would engage with you if needed.
In terms of quality assurance, we have a large number of agencies that are working together to complete these assessments, and the next step is to make sure that we've got that consistent approach so that everything has been verified all the information that's been collected is accurate .
Last week on Monday, we talked about those surveys that we're going to be undertaking in people’s properties, so I'd like to thank all the residents that have worked with us in terms of providing keys. I know it has been quite complicated having to call you at short notice, but I really appreciate the fact that you've been flexible to help us.
At end of yesterday, we completed 34 of those structural assessments and today we completed a further eight. Our aim is that we will have them done by tomorrow (Wednesday 27 November).
In terms of the overall assessments, as there is input from a large number of agencies they are around 50% completed, but I envisage that it is going to move forward quite quickly now that we've worked through some of those home assessments, which are quite a significant part of the assessment templates.
So that is where we are in terms of that risk assessment process and clearly that feeds into the monitoring solution. For the people who were with us last Monday, we received positive feedback from the demonstrations that were provided by Rockall Safety. We have started that process of acquiring that equipment and we are also working on the protocol that will sit with that because we want to be sure that if an alarm activates that you individually or collectively would receive the appropriate response. All of the emergency services and the local authority are looking at what the protocol would be, so that we've got a really robust position in place.
We are still looking at an aim to start those installations on the 5th and 6th December, and the monitoring equipment is coming from Canada. We are hopeful that we will have those two days as our initial phase of getting those units installed; the caveat is we have to complete those risk assessments and we clearly have to make them available to yourself so you have time to look at them and understand what they mean and then we need to be certain that the level of monitoring is appropriate in terms of the risk assessment that it recommends.
Questions raised
Question: From this map provided in the handout, the later data, it still shows gas levels around the borehole. So to me, nothing has really changed. Are BGS going to check how much gas is actually down there?
Answer: (Laura) The red dot on the map is the position of the borehole, not any gas readings from the borehole. We are asking BGS to come to the next meeting to give everyone a more detailed update on all their readings. Unfortunately, they were not able to attend tonight’s meeting.
(Fire) We continue to see fluctuations around the borehole site and this is to be expected, as we will see the levels change in relation to the atmospheric conditions. The levels are very low at the minute, what we are seeing are little bubbles of gas coming and going rather than a constant flowing. We do not know the level of gas, and this is something we need to explore but more in the medium/long-term as right now we are focussing on the monitoring the borehole and getting the installation of the monitoring equipment so that you can return to your homes.
Question: With the individual risk assessments can you give us an indication of how that will be relayed to us and timescale?
Answer: (Sarah) The first task is to get them populated and then we need to get that quality assurance done and we are looking to create that opportunity for residents to come and view them and speak to some of the experts that have helped to compile them. We will be looking to start the quality assurance process from Friday this week.
Question: With the monitoring equipment, who will be installing them?
Answer: (Sarah) We will need access to properties and would hope to complete this installation in collaboration with residents. The positioning and number of monitors and the initial appropriate level of monitoring will be determined primarily by Rockall Safety and utilising the risk assessment.
Residents will be offered training on how to activate, details of protocols and how to set up with the portal so you can monitor all the levels. The experts will determine and advise the correct positioning of the equipment, and we will sit down with residents to speak about how much involvement they want in this process.
Question: The latest data says it looks at readings in soil of depths between 45 and 70cm. Does it not need to look deeper to see how gas has gone 5,10, 20m down?
Answer: (Fire) BGS are responsible for doing that in soil monitoring and this is the limit to the depth of the equipment they have. It is that top level of soil that is key as that is where the gas comes from.
Question: The information letter that has been sent to us states that “There are robust methods of carrying out continuous monitoring,”. What does mean and what is going to be in place post residents returning?
Answer: (Fire) We have previously talked about the telemetry system, this system doesn't rely on humans interacting with it and it is constantly being monitored at frequency both in house and in soil that will enable us to ensure that the readings that we do get are of a frequent enough nature for us to assure ourselves that the stability of those readings remain at a level that is safe.
Question: Will there be any sub-floor monitoring?
Answer: (Fire) Potentially yes, we are still working with the buyer now to identify the appropriate monitoring system based on the construction type of the premises.
Question: Do we need to get these monitors in first and with the continuously low gas readings, are these the only criteria we need to meet in order for us to move back?
Answer: (Sarah) We do need to treat every house as an individual but, assuming the risk assessment doesn’t identify any other specific vulnerabilities for that home that would require additional thinking and the current level of readings remain unchanged, the key control measure we are looking for is that suitable in-house monitoring.
Question: Have these risk assessments been drawn up with in collaboration with the insurance industry? Is there going to be a problem once these documents are live then anyone getting their insurance renewed?
Answer: (Fire) I do not know the answer to the second part, but for the first part, it hasn't been done in collaboration with anybody from the insurance industry at present. But it is something we can take away and investigate.
Question: These three points I would like to raise on behalf of MP Richard Fuller. He raised them in his debate last week, I am not entirely sure that the technical and scientific committees are looking at these. First, as Jim mentioned, measuring the size of the gas reservoir, the second point being about whether the venting caused any fissures which may be of concern, and thirdly whether the venting caused such proportion of gas to be released that the pressure on the soil will now collapse. Are those three things being looked up?
Answer: (Fire) Currently no, it has been raised and it will need to be looked at in the medium to long-term, but at the moment we are looking at the safe return to homes. The options we had were to displace everybody for that period of time or we bring you back on a risk-based process, where we explained to you what the risks are left that we know of, some of these are unknown risks. That will take time and, as Richard highlighted in the Commons, at the moment there is no regulation, there is no accountability, and no one individual department that is going to be responsible for this. And as Richard highlighted in the Commons, it does take them time to work through all of these aspects.
Question: At a previous meeting we were told that a monitoring device would be offered regardless of what the risk assessment says, is that still the case?
Answer: (Sarah) Yes, it is our intention to make some level of monitoring available to every home and the risk assessments are there to make sure that what we are offering is suitable and appropriate to the risk.
Question: The readings are very low, it seems that we are awaiting data but there seems to be a plethora of data that says it is OK. What am I missing?
Answer: (Fire) The readings we are getting are low, which is great news. What we have continued to say is that it's not a week, a two-week, a three-week period that's going to allude to the fact that they are going to be that they're at a level that it's continuously safe. We do not know the amount of gas that may have gone into the soil and is potentially trapped there.
We are still yet to see that pathway be informed because of the right metrological or geophysical conditions. Whether enough pressure has been released to make the gas lighter or movement within the substrate that it creates a new pathway to enable gas to move. We do need to you to be aware that we may see further gas travel during the different conditions throughout the year, which may mean that the risk assessment for your premise may change over time. That is the reason we cannot say that due to three weeks of gas monitoring at zero, that is now safe.
Question: Will we all be able to return home before Christmas?
Answer: (Fire) There is no one answer for everybody, this is depending on your homes individual risk assessment, and the correct monitoring being in place
The risk assessment will look at the premises in regards to; the type of construction, the amount of gas that may be surrounding it, the type of gas, the amount of gas that may have gone into it over time. This will all mean that each property will have their individual risk assessment and the appropriate monitors to mitigate the risk. Your individual risk assessment will be communicated with you to ensure that you understand what this means for you and your property, and the monitoring that will be in place.
Question: I do not understand why people have got to sign in three times and I have got issues about that process as well because it is inconsistent. The police particularly can be quite obstructive, insisting you sign the form and will not let you go until you say you're not signing it.
Answer: (Laura) When Katherine started her discussion about the cordon earlier, she highlighted that we have had some teething issues on the Friday and probably Saturday morning, which we apologise for and this was about how we are briefing all of our teams. If you are just going back temporarily to collect things you do not have to sign the notice anyway, so that if that's still being inconsistent, we will pick that up.
(Police) That process, if the visit to your property is already booked in with the LRF, then you wouldn't have to sign.
The officers have been given a very prescriptive briefing about what to do in different scenarios. Anyone entering the 100-metre cordon without supervision will have to sign the advice note. If you don't wish to sign, please specify this to the officers on duty who will read the advice note to you, and make record of your name and decision not to sign. If there are issues, I will take that back and try and get that re-briefed so that it is clear.
Question: Why are HSE and BGS not present at this meeting?
Answer: (Laura) It relates back to the availability of people. British Geological Survey (BGS) have confirmed that they will have someone available for future meetings so that they can talk about the gas readings and answer your questions. For HSE, it is about availability. We will be talking to all of the partners about how we work with you and say that we would like to see them at these meetings, but it is just a circumstance that they weren't available today. Both BGS and HSE are committed to working with us in this emergency response, and they are very involved in all of the other meetings, such as the technical cell and strategic meeting, and they are populating the relevant sections of the risk assessments that are within their area of expertise.
Question: What is the availability of deliveries and general day-to-day life of coming and going of people within those properties who choose to stay in their homes? I just want to make sure that if there is an impediment to deliveries for anybody, particularly Christmas with Amazon deliveries. Can you confirm it what the process is? Would the delivery drivers be able to go through the cordon? Or if not, is there a central location where these things could be forwarded to?
Answer: (Police) As it stands, any delivery driver or any others would have to sign the same advisory note to go through the cordon, but I can appreciate as you are saying, that could cause issues. I think that is something to take back and look further out.
(Craig) I'll take that forward as we have got enough space here as long as they'll be happy to deliver it there.
Question: How long will the installation process take place for, and can we expect to return home potentially before Christmas? The risk assessment people came to our property today, can I have a bit more clarity about what sort of survey it is they are doing.
Answer: (Sarah) It is not a structural engineer's report in the traditional sense in terms of if you were buying and selling your home, the person that's conducting the survey, has the qualifications in that space, but they're doing that visual assessment around the methods of construction of the property. It is more than just visual assessments of those access points (although that is part of the process), but a detailed assessment of construction methods such as the floors of the property and how they are constructed and what materials. In terms of the walls, whether they might be solid walls or cavity walls and things like service ducts and so whilst they are not necessarily needing to go up into your loft, they are looking at those potential service pathways that might enter into your loft.
The risk assessment template that has been put together allows us to understand the key components of your property that might either encourage gas to move or might actually prevent gas from moving. The purpose of this exercise is very specifically to look for those components.
In terms of the installation, what we have arranged is for the specialists from Rockall Safety to be on scene for those two days. All the work we are doing with the risk assessments, the plans that we've drawn up will allow us to do lots of preparation work in advance of that so on those two days we can maximise their time on site.
There will be other agencies that will have a role to play in that day, so whilst Rockall Safety will be doing the part of the work that relates specifically to the monitors, we are already looking at how we can create a process that will allow us to keep moving from home to home to get as much out of those two days. So, whilst they cannot give an absolute number of how many houses we would hope to deal with in that window, we're already thinking about how we can streamline those processes to make them as effective as possible.
The agencies involved and some of the key processes that will need to happen will be consistent within many of the homes. We will try to put that together in terms of the advice for residents around how the alarm, how the monitors work, the protocols that will happen if an alarm activates, some of the reassurances to how you can access the portal to see the data on your alarms. We can prepare all of that in advance, but obviously the amount of time that we would spend in each home could vary quite significantly.
Once we have spoken with your individual household and discussed your risk assessment and needs, you will have a much greater understanding of whether you would be part of that quite streamlined process on the 5th and 6th or whether there would be an additional level of monitoring that might be needed for your house.
Statement: I do not know about people in here, but I’m certainly getting fatigued by all of this, I was hoping for a little bit of clarity around some of the timelines as people have already mentioned Christmas. We've heard this evening there are things that are needed in the short term and there are needed in the long term, and I would love to see something on a single sheet of paper that tells me what short term stuff versus what is the longer term stuff.
We have also heard it's a house-by-house assessment, but what's the criteria? We have heard in previous weeks zero in air, zero in house, background in soil. We have talked about monitoring being a dependency and risk assessments but what are these low levels as they seem low to me and you have still not been able to commit.
I am also concerned about accommodation, as I feel we need that guidance on a weekly basis telling us if we need to be pushing our accommodation back by further week or two weeks.
We have spoken previously about certification, where are we on that journey about the certification of the fix? Also one of the things that we asked for was some case studies to help provide us with some level of reassurance to us. There is an awful lot of stuff out there that just needs to be gathered together, consolidated and played back to us at some level.
We have also spoken about the legacy issues and Richard raised in Parliament last week we have had some assurance that in the longer term it should come back and there is a huge risk there. One way to mitigate that that this might be the pack that I am referring to, which would enable us in one year, five years or 10 years to say the repair was certified and this is the safety certificate. If we walk away from this without this stuff being sorted, we are storing up problems for the future.
Answer: (Laura) We are pulling together the different bits of data where you have asked us questions about what the insurance industry are doing, the certification piece, we can provide you with more information about where we have got to on some of that. But we have not got all of the answers so we are still pulling some of that together and we can talk about that. We are
focusing on getting those risk assessments, getting what monitoring equipment needs to be put in and that is the short-term stuff which will then help build on where we are to go forward. Then you've got the long-term things, which is what you've mentioned about insurance, about how that affects your property prices, getting some advice on that from a legal perspective, getting a legal perspective following the investigation which is a lot longer away.
(Craig) Anna Robbani is here today, so she can go through individually with anybody that has got any housing issues.
Question: Will Paul Swales house be covered, we can still see into his bedroom and it is very disturbing?
Answer: (Police) I've spoken to the senior investigating officer just prior to this meeting and they have been working on this because there's a lot of safety issues and they want to do that so they can go through the room where property can still be seen and then they'll recover that so it will not be visible. That should be taken place by Friday.
Question: We must find out how much gas is down there. If a pocket could be vented off or burnt, then the gas would be gone and we could all return home safe and put this behind us and we wouldn't be worrying about insurance and the degradation of cement over 10 years and all that stuff. Why is this not being pushed faster? I would also like the Council to retain copies of all the meeting recordings so they can be sent to the coroner as part of the information gathering process.
Answer: (Laura) Regarding the notes of the meetings, they are available anyway, so that is not an issue. Is your alternative proposal to drill another borehole, see if there is gas there and if there is gas there, vent it off and flare it and you would like us to ask BGS for their view on that. Reading the room, I get the feeling that there are differences of view, but we can ask BGS whether that is an alternative solution. We have been advised that filling the bore hole has pushed the gas back to where it was originally and the issue is about knowing how is there and then what you do with it. At the moment our focus is on getting you back and that will include some short-term monitoring in homes.
Question: Is there any consideration being given as a priority for a moratorium on all ground heat pumps in Brickhill, Putnoe? No one knows how far as it goes, but it is pretty certain if you drilled a hole, the other side of Cleat Hill, you'd hit the gas.
Answer: (Laura) Fundamentally, the issues about how we identify the size of a pocket of gas or what that looks like, we need BGS in the room, they are the people that can provide us with some of the advice on that. They are not here, but they have given a commitment to attend the next meeting.
(Craig) It is something that I think was raised at the first or second meeting and we statutorily cannot deal with and do that. There is no statute that will allow us to do that, I raised this before. It’s a permitted development, the association for heat source pumps, did say that this would be something that they would look at to make sure that their members are all compliant with the relevant regulations associated with the borehole regulations. If you are looking for gas or coal, it is regulated and permitted, if you're looking for water, it's permitted in terms of the EA, but when it comes down to the ground source heat pumps, it's not permitted in terms of any regulation. So that is just the state of play of where it is and it was something that was raised in the House of Commons by the MP Richard Fuller.
Question: Wouldn't it be worthwhile publicising to the residents of Putnoe and Brickhill that if they are considering any form of heat pump involving drilling a hole, lay off it for the short for the moment because it's so uncertain?
Answer: (Craig) I can take a legal opinion on regards to getting that message out there as you put it, but I have got a feeling that it's not going to stop anything from actually happening.
I quite agree. It would only be advisory, but at least the advice would have been given. We will take that away as an action and we will get a legal opinion on that from the Council's perspective.
Question: When we went to our house today, why did the police officer need to video record us? And how this is personal data stored.
Answer: (Police) So they are just on their body worn camera so that we can just record that we've spoken to people and then we just record it on our commander control system. They will do this procedure for everyone who comes to the cordon, and officers should just advise that they are doing recording. I will feed that back to the cordon officers to ensure that this process is being followed correctly.
The data is stored on a hard drive, and it can’t be watched by ‘just anyone’. I will have to get back to you on how long the data is stored.
Question: (Directed to Fire Service) How much gas do you think is down there?
Answer: (Fire) I don't know, if we knew this would be over. It is an unknown amount of gas in an unknown place coming out at an unknown rate, that is as clear as we can be until we can get some monitoring devices in place. We're not going to be able to say that you're safe to go back.
The borehole leaked for a while and whilst it leaked or dented, there was a blockage, that blockage meant that gas went into the strata, so even though we've plugged it right now, there is potentially gas in the ground that could come out. Even if we drilled another hole tomorrow and burnt it all off, that doesn't say that the gas that's gone into the ground is not going to disappear either.
Question: My biggest concern is about the level of expertise that the oil and gas experts have been able to bring to the table, and whether it is that is enough to really have like flushed everything out. There's no reassurance for me I still feel in limbo.
Answer: (Sarah) Whilst I might be giving these updates, it is not my risk assessment process. It's not a template I've created, so the key criteria in this process in terms of the actual document we're using, the information that's being put into it is coming from those experts, it is the coal authority and it is mines rescue service, those organisations that are absolutely competent operating with natural gas and that's why we use them.
There was a huge amount of discussion around the risk assessment template, before we started for exactly this reason, but we wanted to get the template right from the beginning. I would say to reassure you, it is not one single person or one single organisation, and there are on any given day, 5, 6, 7 organisations working side by side looking at these. Each organisation has a really specific role to play in terms of their expertise.
So the fact that we're using a building control officer from the local authority is because he has the correct competency, but he doesn't make a judgement on the gas levels because that sits with another organisation. I know it's really difficult because you can't see them we're talking about a product that you haven't had yet. We hope that once you look at your risk assessment from the perspective of your home, you'll feel more reassured about what we're doing.
Question: In relation to the East West Rail and the Geological Survey. What's the Council's views? Can you ask them to stop if they are going to start drilling exploratory bore holes?
Answer: (Tom Wootton) We've been in meetings all day about East West Rail and they have a consultation on Saturday at the old high school in Bedford.
It was the most unwelcome news I've ever had that every two or three hundred metres along, the whole of North Bedfordshire, they want to dig a borehole.
Laura Church has written to the chief of East West Rail to speak with them about the current situation.
They are starting their non-statutory consultation that will end in February, but then they have got about half a year of doing the sums and they are going to start going to start proper consultations a year after that. They hope to be on site building by 2030 and probably completing by 2035.
We have a whole load of public consultation to go, and with the questions being raised by our MPs I think East West Rail will have to come to a different conclusion than wanting to dig boreholes every two 300 yards up their line.
(Laura) I have written to the chief executive saying that we would ask them not to do any boreholes in the area until I have had confirmation from British Geological Survey that is an acceptable thing to do and that they have an understanding of the geophysics of this area. I am waiting for the confirmation back from BGS around that, I am not aware that East West Rail have started any boreholes but we have asked, we have asked them not to do it at the moment.
And also so that we are also clear on their method statement they've asked for a meeting that we haven't accepted a meeting around that at the moment until I've got some more information back from BGS.
Question: There was mention of an independent review and Paul Bradley commented that we could look at that, will this happen?
Answer: (Laura) We will need to follow this up.
Question: The monitors will give us an early detection rate, how will this stop future explosions? The investigations Paul Bradley said that showed it was the gas that caused the explosion, but something ignited it. Did you find out what was the cause of the ignition?
Answer: (Fire) It isn't conclusive at the moment as to what the ignition source was. Should further evidence be required by the CPS, then we may need to do some further forensic analysis, but at the moment we just we don't know the exact ignition source.
The monitoring devices will be set at such a limit that it's nowhere near the explosive range, so when the alarm goes off, it's far, far below any explosive range. As you see in fresh air now if you open doors and windows, you know it won't get to the rate that it's going to need for an explosive, and you'll be more than safe to leave that premise. This will be part of the process and procedures that we'll be talking about in terms of what actions to take in the event of an alarm going off, but be rest assured, the level it goes off at is far below anything where it's going to be dangerous for you.
(Sarah) I know that when residents looked at some of the monitors last week, there was a question that was raised around what the level could be set at and whether it could be set lower than that. I think there is a standard level that the monitors would activate at as Jim suggested would be significantly lower than anything that would be in that explosive range, but these monitors can be set to even lower than that if people wanted, but we'd have to just think about the inconvenience of alarms activating more frequently. In terms of what would happen when the alarm activates, there's a number of things in that protocol which then allow us to ensure people's safety. The alarm could activate whilst your house was empty so we need to think about that in terms of how you would be contacted away from the home to notify you that if we can't get in contact with you, that emergency services would be required to attend your home. If the alarm activates while you're in the house, how we could communicate with homeowners through the device? Or if that's not successful, calling up, emergency contact numbers and then also that emergency response. So that's the whole process that we're building is all those reassurances so that if an alarm activates all of those suitable protocols that in place that have been considered and they've been communicated to you so you understand exactly what would happen in that situation and you have got that confidence.
Question: You talked earlier about difference in the monitors between families and what's right for them what do you mean by that? Do you mean different settings or different monitors or do you mean multiple monitors?
Answer: (Sarah) Some of the examples that people have raised in previous meetings as concerns about the fact that they may have children who are in the house by themselves for periods of time or older relatives that are in the home for periods of time. So some of them will be very specific, but others will be, as you've suggested, it could be down to the size of the property or the design of the property. When we were talking about individually the level of monitoring has got to be suitable for the home and the people that live in the home, but we're not making a decision without you and we're not making the decision until we understand what each house needs.
Question: Given the uniqueness of what we're dealing with and it's never happened in the UK before, it has in other countries, so why are we not pulling on all the resources to put their heads together? I don't feel like actually got the people all together that we need.
Answer: (Laura) I think we should when we're talking about where we are, let you know all of the advice that we're getting from lots of different places and lots of different experience so that you can, what we are trying to do. We are calling on experts, we are looking at other countries where things have happened that are that similar. We are looking at that expertise, but I think we need to communicate that better to you.
Comment: I think somewhere some either during the meeting or on the messages we get, it should be bullet pointed where you're at, what you're doing, what you've done, how many you've done.
Reply: (Laura) That's really helpful feedback, we are conscious that we met with you two weeks ago and took your advice and changed messaging so that we won't just repeating the same things over and over again.
Question: Given the fact that we haven't seen the risk assessment templates and we're relying on you to look at these risk assessment templates, calculate how many monitors we need. Have you pre-ordered enough monitors for all properties or are you waiting on the risk assessments first?
Answer: (Laura) To get the process going, we've ordered 90 and these are the ones that are coming from Canada. But we have access to other sources and MRSL also make use of this device so we have access to some more as well.
Question: With the festive season coming, if we move back into our homes and we get a bit merry and we need to get a taxi home from Bedford, is the taxi going to be able to come back to our homes?
Answer: (Police) If we're talking about going through the cordon, if it's still in place, then yes, they would need to sign or be read the Advice Note. But if the monitoring is in place and you are home, will the cordon still be in place? I think that's what we have to review.
Question: If my monitor goes off and it detects gas, what happens to my neighbours?
Answer: (Sarah) I would want to get absolute clarification and I can come back to you, but based on the demonstrations and the conversations we had, I think for yourselves, each household would be treated as a separate unit. You might have more than one alarm in your property and you would be notified of any activations of any of those alarms directly. Emergency responders would be notified as soon as your alarm activates, so it doesn't sit entirely with yourself because you might not be at home and you might not be near to your property when that happens.
Are you suggesting that you feel that you would want to have that oversight of other people's alarms or not? Because it's your home and the data within it would be yours. There are scenarios that we could explore about people being able to see levels in other people's houses, but I'd need to ask that question because clearly it's quite a complicated thing that would need to be created.
My understanding with conversations with Rockall Safety is that there are a number of different ways that the monitoring can happen. I absolutely know that individual households will be able to see the levels on their monitors remotely when they're not in their homes. So you will have the ability to log on to a portal or an app at any point in time that will tell you.
In terms of the Local Resilience Forum, we will have some oversight on those readings across all of the alarms but whether we're considering that yourselves are collective, would be able to see that is something that I would need to explore. I don't think it's something that prohibits us moving forward because the portal and the protocol are things that could be developed with time, I just need to understand what the capabilities are and it might be that initially homeowners just want to see their own data but that might change.
Question: I would like some more clarity on whether once those risk assessments are completed and residents understand the risk within their property, does that mean that the risk then sits with them when they go back to their property? Will we need to sign these assessments?
Answer: (Laura) The risk assessments are helping us to help you get back to your property and understanding what we have seen from the construction of the property ,where pipework goes in, whether it has been affected by gas in soil close by or any gas in properties and that's what we're taking account of. We are not expecting residents to sign them.
Question: If the houses aren't deemed safe after a risk assessment, what are the next steps? Will there ever be a time where we look at compulsory purchase orders?
Answer: (Laura) I think that we need to do everything that we're looking at now around the risk assessments and it is too early to start thinking about that at the moment. Our focus as we've talked about is a getting people to be able to safely return to their homes. So that will be in the next steps discussions. Once we've done the risk assessments and we've also looked at all of the individual properties.
Question: Can you give an example in any other situation where a homeowner is given a risk assessment?
Answer: (Craig) This is an advisory, no, I can't give you any examples of that. This is a risk assessment; it is giving you the relevant information to give you the advice in terms of having all the relevant expertise that we've got to hand to determine the risks posed at your property at this point in time. It's very different to requiring somebody to do a risk assessment, which is what we would do from a legal perspective. What this is giving residents that information to enable you to understand the risks posed. It's not saying you are responsible for it. It's saying this is the information that is available, this isn't forcing it upon you. It's about giving you that advice to help support you in terms of understanding those risks and what control measures are being put in place. What they have done at the borehole is a control measure and what is being done with the monitoring is going to be a control measure.
Question: My concern is around the implications for insurance and possibly mortgage associations because nothing like it has ever existed before and there might be a whole heap of unintended consequences that can result of providing that document that says that there is a risk associated with that property. Has the panel considered this? You could just do all this work without a live document there, I understand the rush to get people back to their homes.
Answer: (Craig) Jim has said we will take this away in relation to the insurance.
I think people would probably disagree that we've rushed anything and they'll be saying that the opposite. The clarity around this is to make sure it's done thoroughly and properly to be able to give the right advice. It is a good point about the insurance company that we need to be checked and looked at.
